NC collision with traffic signal sequence report.

[andyweb]

My wife was turning left at a 4 way intersection in Charlotte, NC Sunday November 28, 2020. She had just met with a friend of hers (witness), and they were both departing from the Left Hand lane. There were 3 vehicles in the lane, my wife's friend was second and she was the last car in the lane. They were turning on a protected green arrow. As my wife entered the intersection and was turning, another vehicle appeared in front of her and both vehicles impacted. The police report did not assign any causation and took statements from both drivers. The other driver claims to have had a green light. According to the traffic signal sequence possible displays would include my wife turning on a protected green arrow and the other driver having a 'red ball'. The police report also indicates that the other driver was travelling at approx 25 mph. Is that speed possible from a standing start, or would the other driver have to have travelled through a red light?

[mchenrysoftware]

you seem to have a lot of crashes on your plate?? prior posting and now this?
but just quick look...guess i'm in procrastinating mode (ahhhh...working on code...zzz...anythign to escape...)

DISCLAIMER i am merely throwing some ideas/things out there and some of it might be construed/considered SPECULATION
Something we should not do as crash reconstructionists
BUT
since this is just a discussion forum i can and will do that!

1. First police indicate for other vehicle Driver 2 had a 25 travel speed and 20 MPH at impact...
   • which would indicate police saw braking/tire marks pre-impact?
2. Second, from a quick look (oh i love Google maps/Earth/etc as so much information in an instant!)
   • vehicle 2 (the other car) traveled approx 50 feet from stop bar to approximate guesstimate of area of impact
   • You didn't provide any pics of damage, marks at scene, distance traveled post impact, etc etc)
3. SO if so....in 50 feet to get to 25 mph would require...
   • using equation (see link in other posting of yours on your other impact/crash)
     • V^2 = 30 MU S (V=speed mph, MU=accel in Gs, S=Distance Feet)
   • or otherwise written
     • MU (accel in G's) = V^2/(30* S)
     • = 25^2/(30*50)
     • = 0.42 Gs....
   • Typical "Normal" Acceleration is approx 0.13 Gs or so from a stop....
   • So me thinks the driver was driving a drag racer??
   ALSO
4. Consider that the person in Vehicle 2 perceived and reacted (P/R) by getting on their brakes and leaving tire marks
   • Again assuming for police to say 25 MPH travel and 20 MPH at impact they must have seen tire marks
5. so normally takes between 1.5 sec to 2.5 sec to realize/percieve and react/get on brakes
   • 1.5 to 2.5 seconds @ 25 MPH = 37 Feet/Sec = 37 * 1.5 -2.5 seconds
   • MEANS 52.5 to 92.5 feet
   • hmmmmm...interesting..well of course if accelerating from a stop first she wouldn't be at 25 mph (so less distance)
   • BUT she'd have less distance to get up to 25 MPH so MORE acceleration that 0.40??
   MAIN POINTS:
   And qualifying as somewhat useless speculative and without actual facts/measurements and all that exercises is that
   • NO she DID NOT start from a stopped position at the stop bar approximately 50 feet from impact
   • YES she probably was traveling along and (SPECULATION! saw the vehicles turning left and probably knows the area and light timing somewhat and thought it would change shortly thereafter 2nd car and didn't' realize a 3rd car was there so timed it...WRONG
     SO interesting sidebar is she started her perception and reaction BEFORE the stop bar
   • Last point: Driver 2 DID NOT have a solid Green light
   
   Please anyone reviewing this and seeing calculation or other issues etc please chime in, post up or let me know!

[andyweb]

Hi Brian
Thanks again for your feedback. The accident frequency for my wife and I is very unusual; I have been driving in this country now for 10 1/2 years and not even a single ticket!! The police officer had driver 2 listed in the wrong lane (left), she would have been in the right hand lane (straight or turn right). He didn't bother to follow-up with witness report either and despite repeated messages from myself, he will not return my calls nor update the accident report. Should be able to get a photo of my wife's vehicle to you later tonight. I am a paralegal and are planning to drive up there (Charlotte) next week and file suit. Are you aware of any decent attorneys you could recommend that you believe would take this case on.
Truly appreciate your assistance again!!! Andrew

[andyweb]

Brian
Here are the photos from my wifes vehicle

[mchenrysoftware]

I recommend you cut the police officer some slack.
Realize they handle many cases, especially in a large city like Charlotte, and so you are but one of many cases.
Be patient and understanding.
Police officers have very different work schedules from the 'normal 9-5' so might be they are on a few days off when you tried to contact them and/or haven't gotten your message.
Be patient.
To you your case is extremely high priority.
To a police officer there were no injuries and it's mainly a property settlement issue.
Cases which include death and/or serious injury would get the highest priority of the police (as one would expect)
Just recognize your case is not a high priority so be patient and understanding.
Has your insurance carrier looked at the circumstances and wouldn't they be a first place to seek reconsideration?
You pay your insurance company money to handle situations like this for you so they should probably be your first.

Main point
Realize and appreciate the great service our police do for our communities and be considerate and understanding.

[andyweb]

My Insurance subrogation team is now investigating. Police reports are not admissible in civil suits so I will be filing suit on behalf of my wife.

[andyweb]

The accident was November 28, 2020. I have left multiple messages for the officer the past 2-3 months; I would have considered this a fair amount of time to respond?

[YnotBloom]

Hey Andrew;

Will you get a call back from the Police (Cop brain engaging again)?
>
Based on the overall magnitude of your collision. the size of the Charlotte Metro area, the size of the Charlotte City PD: how busy a big city PD like that is (answer: WAY TOO): if you have been waiting for a callback from the reporting officer all this time, with multiple requests for contact . . . it's probably not going to happen.
>
At this time, I doubt that even a call to the Super or the Comdr of the Division would do much. My department was about 1/5 the size of Charlotte. At this point along a timeline, calling about a crash like this might get funneled to one of the chains of command for a "courtesy" call back, and your answer would probably be, "you will have to take it up in court" or "sorry, but beyond this - it is a civil matter that you will have to work out with the proper authorities."
>
As to why you did not get a call back since November; again using my department as the example. For a minor (in the Officer's / Department's perspective) service call resulting in a no/minor injury, property damage only, left turn-based traffic light crash is a very low priority compared to all of the other matters that they are handling. Their Officers most likely operate (with the administration's blessings, even if only implied) is that if a citizen is calling about such a matter, TRY to call back IF you get a break in the action. If it is an attorney calling, TRY TWICE but only IF you get a break in the action. The first will usually go away after a while; the latter will subpoena you if it is important enough. This sounds cold to the citizen, but in the hard reality of their day-to-day duties, it will be hard to justify to anyone why you took ANY time away from the armed robbery investigation, 2 battery cases, 5 domestic violence incidents that you are still investigating ("...and why are you still standing here for? Get back out there - there are calls backing up!").
>
Depending upon how many crashes the Officer has worked (or usually works) over a period of that time (which included 2-3 usually busy holiday periods, which usually equal way more crash reports), odds are good that they won't even remember your specific crash - unless his/her bag and favorite is working crashes (not a popular hobby among most Officers, by the way, because it involves PAPERWORK - the bane of most Officers......).
>
Time and circumstances are bad adversaries in this sort of thing. I could be dead wrong - but that is my take at this point.

[JGallagher]

North Carolina has one of the most stringent contributory negligence tort schemes in the country. There are only 5 contributory negligence states in the US.

Under NC's scheme, if you're even 1% at fault, you're barred from recovery. In a case with a left hand turn, from a standing stop, and damage to the front end of your vehicle, I'd say it's a lead pipe cinch that more than 1% fault would be attributed to your wife based on any number factors including maintaining a proper lookout, yielding the right of way to a vehicle that's already in possession of the travel lane or which is so close as to constitute a threat.

I'd venture a guess that the officer knows that he got the basics of the dispute correct. There was a crash at specific intersection, between two specific parties, who both claim to have the right of way because of the traffic signal phase.

The rest is a civil matter, in a state with a ridiculously high burden of proof standard for civil recovery. If you haven't done it already, have somebody image the ACM in your vehicle to see what's there.

As to the 20 seconds being enough time for all three vehicles to traverse the left hand turn, you'll have human perception reaction to deal with for three vehicles with regard to the light changing, and successive driver response to the forward movement of the first two vehicles and also the fact that the turns are going to be a little slower than average because you're making a 135 degree turn, past perpendicular.

Also, are you factoring in the 85 feet that your wife would have had to traverse from the time the light turned green, if she's in the 3rd position, with the first vehicle being at the safety stop bar at this intersection, to get into the closest lane on Queens Road? And that's before she makes the turn. From Google Earth, it looks like she'd have had to make a looping movement covering about 125-140 feet in total, before contact was made. I'm not so sure the 20 second protection of the arrow is going to give you as much cover as you are gonna need to affix the other driver at 100% negligent. How long is the left turn yellow before the adverse vehicle gets green??

I have ACM data on a turn from a standing stop sign on a case earlier this month, that shows the driver's steering and speeds and yields a turn arc that's approximately 45 feet long, with depth of 9.5 feet. The driver traversed this in 5 seconds and got up to a speed of about 9 miles per hour. The arc your wife would have had to have driven would be about 125-140 feet long, with a depth of about 30 feet, give or take, so it should take your wife at least three times as long to complete her greater turning arc....so now we're out to 15 seconds, plus human perception reaction time for the first vehicle, and time to clear the space immediately in front of the 2nd vehilce, human perception reaction time for the 2nd vehicle, plus time to clear the space in front of your wife and - finally - your wife's human perception reaction time....

I think the 20 seconds of protection is gone. The good news is that even if the adverse driver had a green, and the right of way, they should have maintained a proper lookout and seen that your wife was already in the intersection before proceeding, so they're barred from recovery.

The affidavit was a nice touch, but I think it hurts you more than it helps you....