Broadside auto accident-can photos of damage and location info reveal fault?

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mslaweyr
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Broadside auto accident-can photos of damage and location info reveal fault?

Post by mslaweyr »

If you have the location of two vehicles before and after a broadside accident along and with photos of the damage done to both vehicles, can a reconstructionist determine with some degree of certainty who was at fault? Police report states "cause" not determined because of the inconsistent witness statements - one witness says white SUV entered intersection on red and another witness in a vehicle next to black truck (who struck white SUV) said black truck ran a red light - the police report also notes that the driver of black truck stated that she was traveling towards intersection and had turned around to get something for her daughter, but that she "thought" she had a green. Here is what we have - accident report diagram - and pictures of the vehicles. Comments about who appears at fault based upon location and extent of damage as well as where the vehicles came to rest, are greatly appreciated. thank you, in advance.
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Re: Broadside auto accident-can photos of damage and location info reveal fault?

Post by actar670 »

Traffic light condition cases are almost always completed by comparing a particular version of events to the specific timing sequence of the traffic lights at the intersection. One can sometimes corroborate or discredit a particular witness version by showing the version does not match the known light sequence. As with any witness statement, the perspective of that witness must also be considered. Can the witness actually see the lights in question, or are they just guessing at the light conditions? Did the witness hear or see the crash, and then after watching the vehicles spin around and come to final rest, looks up at the traffic light to see the condition of the lights after the crash occurred?

The damage to the involved vehicles and the post-impact movement they experienced in the crash can be used to calculate the speeds of the two vehicles at the time of impact. The photos you posted might be helpful in placing the vehicles in their final rest positions, but there is not enough information provided in this post to give you an answer to who ran the light.

I would suggest contacting a local crash reconstructionist to take a look at the available information and see if there is enough to work with. If all you have is what you posted, the answer should be NO.
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Re: Broadside auto accident-can photos of damage and location info reveal fault?

Post by mchenrysoftware »

As Bruce states, gathering all pertinent information is important to insure a proper and accurate reconstruction.
Please see HELP! If YOU or someone you know has been in an accident! for items which you should try to collect to insure a proper reconstruction.

However, against my better judgement (since a accident reconstructionist should wait to see ALL pertinent information) i provide the following extremely preliminary observations:
    • the rest position of the Northbound Black vehicle was approximately in it's lane of travel: this is assuming the 'witness' was in the adjacent northbound lane (the East Northbound lane) and appears to be indicated in the police 'fact diagram')
    • You indicate a witness in the lane adjacent to the black vehicle who did not participate in the collision so they had either stopped or were able to stop prior to entering the intersection
    • the EastBound white car was not traveling very fast at the point of collision (It did not rotate or move laterally significantly the Northbound black vehicle which struck it).
    • the slow movement of the white vehicle might indicate that the vehicle started from a stopped position or otherwise braked prior to impact?
    • the Northbound black vehicle struck the westbound white vehicle and pushed it northward in its lane of travel.
    • the rest positions of the vehicles are in error in the 'fact sheet' since it indicates the White vehicle is on the median whereas the photos have the white vehicle at rest in the same lane as the Black vehicle.
    • the while vehicle, if starting from a stopped position, went across 1 and 1/2 lanes of the Northbound travel lanes before being struck by the black vehicle
    • in some jurisdictions the white vehicle 'owns' the intersection (since it was in the intersection well before the black vehicle entered the intersection due to their relative speeds and the distances into the intersection each traveled prior to impact)
    • A green light means proceed with caution when the intersection is clear. Be sure to check local laws (it looks like CA accident?)
That's all folks!
i hope my fellow reconstructionists who read this collection of extremely preliminary observations based on some assumptions please be gentile (and for levity i refer you all to Benny Hill for the meaning of assume!)

brian
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Re: Broadside auto accident-can photos of damage and location info reveal fault?

Post by mslaweyr »

Thank you so much for your response. It is greatly appreciated! I have attached two other pictures which do show the white suv front right tire in the median - and another depicting a better view of how they came to rest. The white suv knocked down the sign which is seen laying in the median.

One witness stated they observed the white suv "spin" in the intersection -and wonder if that changes anything. The distance from POI to where the white suv came to rest in the black suv lane of traffic facing the wrong direction, appears to be over 30 ft. or more. Does this information alter any of your thoughts about fault. thank you again, your time and expertise is very appreciated.
13-06392 DM19.JPG
13-06392 DM15.JPG

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Re: Broadside auto accident-can photos of damage and location info reveal fault?

Post by mchenrysoftware »

OK, so in the diagram the police were indicating that the white vehicle went onto the median (so impact 2 is the white vehicle taking out of the sign) and then the vehicle spun out to rest.
No, the movement of the white vehicle (spinning out) doesn't change things since the black vehicle remained in it's lane of travel which is an indication that the white vehicle was not traveling fast enough to move the black vehicle laterally as a result of the collision.
As part of the AR rule that 'one shouldn't make any speculation based upon incomplete information' last evening after posting i wondered if perhaps the black vehicle was the one coming from the w/b offramp. Your latest posting confirmed that the white vehicle was exiting the offramp and came to rest in the black vehicle lane of travel.
With my assumptions and the limited information things haven't changed as to my observations.
HOWEVER...to reiterate what Bruce conveyed: you should get a local police, insurance investigator or an accident reconstructionist to gather ALL the pertinent information (vehicle weights, inspection of the damage to each vehicle, perhaps do a 'black box' readout on each vehicle, etc) to be sure that you have complete information to be sure that one or more of my assumptions doesn't change things. (most police departments have officers who specialize in accident reconstruction however they normally have way too many cases so sometimes don't get involved unless there is a death or serious injury).
and to reiterate: My response was an extremely preliminary review and observation based on the limited evidence....

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Re: Broadside auto accident-can photos of damage and location info reveal fault?

Post by mslaweyr »

Brian, I wanted to thank you again for taking the time and effort in responding to my posts. We realize that your opinions are to be taken with the understanding that are preliminary and we do intend to retain an expert, but for now we are just trying to get an idea of who appears, at first glance, is primarily responsible....including whether the state, county or local city authorities play a part in any fashion, and particularly whether the timing of the lights could be factor considering that two different other drivers said each of the respective drivers "ran the red" or "entered the intersection on red". Do you know of an expert reconstructionist here in the California bay area with trial experience? Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the two cars involved in this accident of which were manufactured before 2001, would not have black boxes. And isn't there a website one could go to ascertain the weight of the vehicles involved? Is the weight a significant factor and other than weight, the vehicles' damage, POI and resting place facts , pictures and police accident report , what are the facts which we should have in hand to provide to an expert for an opinion on causation? We have already read the " HELP! If YOU or someone you know has been in an accident! " and various other reputable articles from other reconstruction experts, but would appreciate your thoughts on what comes to your mind about what other information should be gathered. Thanks so very much!!!!

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Re: Broadside auto accident-can photos of damage and location info reveal fault?

Post by sd3225 »

From the photos it looks like one vehicles is a Jeep and the other may be a Dodge Durango ?? If you care to send me the Yrs, Makes and Models I will send you the specs for them, including curb weights. They can be located but it would probably be simpler for me to get them for you then it would be to explain it. As for the EDRs (black boxes) the Jeep family only has CDR coverage back to 2006, and the Dodge line, if it is a Durango is supported back to 2005 as well. However, that does not necessarily mean there is not data recorded in them, it may be a different method to get it...
hope this helps some
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Re: Broadside auto accident-can photos of damage and location info reveal fault?

Post by sd3225 »

I apologize if some of this has been answered already as I am reading through this very briefly. In signal controlled intersections there is a very specific timing plan that the controller operates by. the issue is correlating that time-line with the event. Sometimes having the signal timing plan may help shed some light and suggest who may have ran a red display. now having said that... there may only be a very few times that I, or any reconstructionist may be comfortable saying who red it without some additional facts. I.E. its late at night when a signal plan shows that it "rests-in-red" for a particular direction until it receives a "call" from another phase. If surrounding witnesses can be treated as "credible" then it may be possible to work toward a reasonable conclusion, but thats not often the case. If you can determine who "owns" the signal then my suggestion would be to contact them and request a full copy of the signal timing sheet that was in effect on that day. If that is at the end of a freeway off-ramp then Cal-trans would be the likely owner.
I hope this helps some...


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Re: Broadside auto accident-can photos of damage and location info reveal fault?

Post by mslaweyr »

sd3225 wrote:From the photos it looks like one vehicles is a Jeep and the other may be a Dodge Durango ?? If you care to send me the Yrs, Makes and Models I will send you the specs for them, including curb weights. They can be located but it would probably be simpler for me to get them for you then it would be to explain it. As for the EDRs (black boxes) the Jeep family only has CDR coverage back to 2006, and the Dodge line, if it is a Durango is supported back to 2005 as well. However, that does not necessarily mean there is not data recorded in them, it may be a different method to get it...
hope this helps some
Doug English, JDEA & Associates, http://www.jdeassociates.com


thank you so much for your response!
The white vehicle - according to the police report is a Jeep Grand Cherokee - Year 2000
The black vehicle - according to the police report is a Dodge Durango - Year 1999

According to the research we have done, which is admittedly limited, neither have a recording device, black box or otherwise. If you happen to know differently, we would be grateful to have that information. Again, your input is greatly appreciated. Do you have an opinion on fault based on the limited information provided thus far? Agree with Brian? Brian had mentioned that his opinion would change if there were skid marks left by the white car. Based on the pictures and absence of any mention of skid marks in the police report, it would appear there were none. Thank again.

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Re: Broadside auto accident-can photos of damage and location info reveal fault?

Post by gottuna »

question was the durango making a left turn. sorry if i missed it. but the damage looks to be consistant with a left turn. here in az. the law says that a vehicle turning left shall yield to on coming traqffic if they are in close proxcimity to the intersection, even if that vehicle has to run the red light.
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